Battery Vehicle Society

Hello all

Firstly I'm going to be honest up front and let you know that I'm a student doing a master's dissertation who needs a bit of help. (I've contacted Chris about posting on this forum previously so this isn't entirely 'cold-calling').

I'm interested in finding out the opinions of EV owners on a number of things - namely why they think people buy EVs and, just as importantly, why they think they don't buy them. I'd be eternally grateful if you'd just generally chip in with your opinions on this. What would really help is if a free flowing discussion could just get started. There is no 'right' answer to this, and if you think what you're about to say is a bit controversial post it anyway - they're usually the best bits from my point of view!

I'd be particularly interested in knowing why people buy EVs over hybrids?

Many thanks for your help on this.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I am also a Masters Student and I am researching a number of possible thesis subjects to write about, though not on this forum at the moment.

I don't drive an EV yet but I am building one based on a Toyota MR2.

I chose this route as I cannot afford to buy an EV with the range or performance I need for my work commute. However, in the process I am also finding it a very expensive procedure due to the cost of components and batteries.

I have looked at purchasing a commercially produced EV but they seem to fall in to only two camps. Either very small and with limited range and speed or hugely expensive and aimed at the supercar buyers market.

The second hand market is also limited with only the Berlingo/Partner option or tiny angular boxey things that looks like an invalid carriage of old with little more range then a childs toy! Other then that it is DIY conversions of unknown history or quality or vehicles only really suited to warehouse and industrial estate distribution.

Anyway, those are my reasons for my project and may not apply to others.


My opinion as to why EVs have not taken off in the UK is due to range and convenience and poor design styling as well as price. Having spoken to a number of friends and work associates about my project the general concensus is that:
30 mph max is too slow,
30 miles max is insufficient range,
8 hours charging is too long,
Designs look poor and undesirable,
Lack of available charging points and charging takes too long,
Difficulty of charging if not parked right outside own home or on driveway,
Concerns that EVs are less 'green' then conventional cars,
Available cars are too expensive for what they offer.

Although not all of the above are strictly true of all EVs it does form the general opinion of those I have spoken with. I also share some of those concerns based on the available commercially produced EVs.

It has been suggested that I buy a hybrid car for my needs. However, I already have a diesel car that returns equal to or better fuel consumption then the available hybrids and still provides me with 5 seats and nearly 6' of load space for work and the ability to tow a trailer. So having done the maths a hybrid doesn't stack up for me even as a second car.

So why have I bothered with an EV at all?
I am being a pioneer, like most on this and other EV forums I guess.
I believe that transport of the future will have electric traction. The energy supply is still open but batteries and home charging is an easier option then hydrogen.
Someone has to start and make or buy a vehicle that suits their needs and that slowly encourages the use of electricity as a power source. Although the electricity may still be generated by fossil fuels that, hopefully, will not always be the case. There may also be the option for car to grid power sharing and local renewable generation. As the demand is demonstrated then manufacturers and energy suppliers will become more actively involved in the process.
I work in the hope that EV take up will result in cleaner inner city air and quieter roads as well as less reliance on oil as the primary fuel source for transport.

Another factor for me going the EV route is that although I believe in public mass transport I also believe that one size does not fit all and that many people require a more immediate and more personal transport system that is flexible in use.
My regular commute to work is around 30 minutes by car, at 70mph almost door to door, and around 1 1/2 - 2 hours by public transport on only two days a week which also makes a travel pass uneconomic. The rest of the week I carry timber and tools, which wouldn't be possible on mass transport systems, to a variety of locations while on call.

So thats my tuppence worth. I hope you find it useful.

Hi and good luck

In a not too previous life we had a bike shop selling small cc motorcycles and mopeds (inc electric). We never did sell any of the electric scoots as the petrol equivalents were cheaper - or more correctly - less initial cost (£600 against £1100/£2500 for electric). Unfortunately, we were a bit before our time as very few customers came in asking or even expecting to see an e-moped.

Times have changed, they are much more prevalent with many suppliers/importers and they are now actually cheaper than their ICE equivalent. Obviously most of these products are from China as they are much quicker at responding to demand than America, Europe or even Japan.

They tend to be slightly underpowered compared with a petrol scoots and have obvious limitations re: distance, they are also slightly heavier.

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http://www.eco-wheels.com

After reading a lot of comment on various forums over the past few years it would see to me that a great deal of EV support is down to dogma; ie internal combustion is seen as an evil which must be eradicated. you did ask for controversy! Given that so far the mainstream industry does not seem able to provide us with EV's with decent performance plus range it would seem obvious that thenext best way to reduce emissions from fossil fuel use will be to use a hybrid powered car. It therefore seems reasonable to assume that the slow take-up of hybrids has to be partly due to the previously mentioned dogma. perhaps also possibly the length of time it takes for the Goreites to disover the limitations of depending solely upon public transport for their personal mobility.

In terms of the 'ICE being evil' stance I feel that generally technology should be advancing and improving over time.

The use of fossil resource reserves purely as a fuel for relatively inefficient burning seems to me to be a waste of the resource. I don't feel that the ICE is evil, just that it is one of those items of engineering technology that society has been lazy about and not advanced.

I also think that there is some resistance to EVs as a mode of transport due to it being linked to being an 'environmental solution'. I think some of those who do not believe in the impact human society has had on the resorces and environment of the Earth equally do not accept EVs as being a viable transport option in its own right.

Thanks. (What does ICE stand for by the way? Internal Combustion Engine?)

Night Train and Hyve, you bring up a couple of interesting points relating to the environmental aspect.

Firstly Night Train you seem to suggest that the 'eco-friendliness' of EVs in fact lessen their appeal? Do you (or anyone else) think that the take up would be greater if they were seen as just another form of transport?

Hyve, you're almost suggesting the opposite with regards hybrids at least - that because they're not 'green' enough there is a reluctance to embrace them?

Does anyone feel that car manufacturers and environmentalists may be in a bit of a lose-lose situation here?!

From talking with people about my project I have found that the objections to EVs are varied.
From people who have a level of environmental concern they ask questions on the electricity supply and the batteries to find out how 'eco-friendly' it really is and then debate whether the car is really better then what is already available.
From people who do not care about the environment they generally dismiss the EV as a waste of time and consider it far more polluting then a typical ICE (internal Combustion Engine) due to the mining required for the metals used in batteries and fossil fuels used to generate the electricity. Also they consider the initial cost as a major disadvantage along with the relatively poor performance and range.

I personally think that there are serious issues, that should be discussed, with both ICE and EV in terms of resource use and energy supply chains and distrubution (and the same would apply to cycles, horses, etc when used for transport). However, I do feel that EVs have a more efficient and effective future then ICE.

One thing I did work out is that over a 2000 cycle life of my proposed EV batteries with a 70 mile range they would have driven 2000x70=140,000miles.
Assuming 40x200ah cells at approximately £1/ah that gives £8,000 for the cost of the battery pack.
The pack would have 25.6kWh and at 80% DoD it would be 20.48kWh. To recharge that amount per 70 mile trip would cost 20.48x0.15=£3.07 at 15p per kWh. Over the 2000 cycles that would be £6,140.
Total cost £13,140 giving 9.4 pence per mile.

Over 140,000 miles in my diesel car at 50mpg I would use 2800 gallons of fuel. Assume £5/gallon that would be £14,000 and 10 pence per mile.

Granted that the ICE will have higher maintenance costs and that both fuel suplies will increase in cost over the 140,000 miles it can be seen that it is not always a straight forward case of a financial saving in running an EV. If the EV had a complicated maintenance shedule with repairs to controller, charger and battery management, replacement cells, etc then the maintenance saving could be even less or non existent depending on how much labour on either vehicle could be done as DIY.

At 140,000 miles the EV would be looking at a replacement battery pack. The diesel ICE car could do the same distance again, or more, on the same engine. Not a direct comparison as the EV's motor could outlast the ICE easily.

Even the environmental saving could be a poor return if the electricity came from, say, running an ICE generator off grid or only from coal fired power stations. One would need to endevour to recharge from renewable sources where possible.

Discussing the environmental aspects of EVs can become a potential minefield (especially if one gets the maths wrong ).

I doubt that night Train and I have any real points of disagreement. Over the years I've come to realise that there is no point in trying to argue with people about their beliefs, so if some of the populace believe that humans are not responsible for Climate Change and that consequently they don't need to consider buying an EV, then there is likely to be as much chance of changing that view as of persuading the environmentalist that a hybrid is a reasonable stop-gap solution to the question of sustainable personal transport.
as you put it; the whole question very quickly becomes a minefield. Which is not much help to the original questioner,to whom I can only say that the foregoing are my observations and therefore not useful as evidence of either one opinion or another,merely talking points or angles to bear in mind when asking people for their views.

I'm a purist - EVs all the way I reckon

I'd love to hear more about your masters, and what exactly you are researching?

Also, whereabouts are you based?

Mary.

Well I've got mine cos its cheap My berlingo has cost me £3500 so far, which includes a complete spare van as well, with free road tax, cheap insurance and to be able to do a regular 50miles for a recharge cost of around £1.20 I'd be stupid not to
Its also different, I enjoy driving "not the norm" and thus to be able to drive around in something thats "not the norm" I get a lot of enjoyment from.
Well thats why I own one.

So why dont people buy them, well I think its namely cos there really isnt anything on the market that fits a standard car profile that can maintain standard car type driving profile, they are either far too small or just dont have the ablilty to keep up with the rest of the traffic and of course here in the UK, from my research, the good old british milk float killed the EV here stone dead, you mention you drive an EV and 99% of the time it will be refered to as a milk float and you'll have to suffer the normal milk float jokes if your an owner the fact I've been driving production built EV's that have been able to 60+mph and a range of 50miles+ for the past 15-20yrs shows that there nothing new about them, they have been about for many many years.
EV's in the UK really have to shake the milk flaot image people have of them, yes theres stuff like the Tesla but come on who apart from the odd footyplayer is going to be able to afford one even Mitsuwishywashy has bought one out that you need a small mortage to own and run
Until EV's can price themselves realistically, or even slightly reasonabley, and be able to look and drive like a normal vehicle then they aint going anywhere in my view (xcuse the pun )




You can buy a hybrid thats like a normal car and its not actually a bad price, simple as that really.

Well thats my two p's worth

ChrisB