Eco Light / system

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mattcarr
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 2:27 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Eco Light / system

Postby mattcarr » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:10 am

Hi Mart,

I am glad that you have got your 106 moving under it's own steam now. Not sure what else to offer for the voltage sag issue your seeing apart from saying move to a warmer country :-) then you would never have cold batteries. Seriously, this is all related to the temperature of the pack. The colder it gets the more it sags. Shame there is no way of telling the 106 controller to lower the min voltage or something.

Matt

Grumpy-b
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:06 pm

Re: Eco Light / system

Postby Grumpy-b » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:36 am

You have to sort out the good from the bad cells and get them replaced. If you are charging as a string, with a BMS then this will almost certainly cause the charge to shut down when the first cells start to get into their high voltage area, ie above the nominal cell voltage . Perhaps 4.2 or whatever your particular cells need.
If the cells are unbalanced then the low power cells will sag, and their ability to pass current will impact on the whole packs ability to pass current.
I would suggest thatyou bottom balance the Pack. In Lifepo4 cells their is very little stored power in the cells once they reach 2.7 to 2.5v (make dependant) so taking each cell, not the pack, down will ensure thatthey are basically empty. As you then recharge the whole pack they will charge together all having the same current passed through them. If they are similar they should come up together. If there are weak cells they will hit their high voltage earlier, but at least the whole pack will have a similar charge. There is little point in an unbalanced pack with weak cells to trying to charge the low cells manually up to full voltage, as even if you bring them up, the charge in the poor cells that will have reached high voltage earleir will be less and so will limit the current that can pass through the whole pack.
With temp, Thunderskys say dont charge below 0c, the latest CALBs can go way below that. One option is to do a very low current (say 5 amps) charge for say and hour initially to in effect warm up the cells, before doing a normal charge of much higher current.
Some commercial systems have inbuilt heating, this makes high current charging immediately more of an option. Some have been done electrically with heated sheets or wires some with heated water systems. Since most of our batteries are under the cars or subject to the air movement under the car, one thought would be to have a wraparound skirt to the car so stopping cooling airflow and insulating during charge. You could even hve a separate fan or greenhouse heater to keep things toasty. Or for my smart which has cells mostly under the floor, I have considered a cheap inflatable raft, slip it under inflate and hey presto an insulated layer.
Overall I think the big issue here is the cell imbalance, and possibly the initial cell volatge. WIth a set of original Nicads the freshly charged voltage would have been over 130v, which the system can readily handle. So it would help to have your nominal pack voltage nearer to that than 120. Evan in his 106 conversion had a higher pack volatge and has had few problems.
It may be possible to make changes to the controller to lower the eco light voltage , but then if your cells are of low capacity they wont be able to deliver the required higher current. So its not going to help.

Grumpy-b

Beemer
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Eco Light / system

Postby Beemer » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:19 pm

Something will have to be done with your "eco light". Adjust, disconnect or spoof.

If you bottom balance then you cannot use a top balancing BMS; it will undo all that hard work. The downside with a top balancing BMS is when the pack under load and part discharged a cell reaches the floor (0V). The other stronger cells will force it into reverse. Result, game over for that cell.***
All batteries drop voltage under load. The old Thundersky LiCo's more so when cold.

Please also note modern laptops, they have six LiCo cells in series and the charger does not supply over 19V. For a very good reason.***

***Be careful with Lithium oxide cells. They are the most combustible and have been known to go thermal at the oddest of times.

Grumpy-b
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:06 pm

Re: Eco Light / system

Postby Grumpy-b » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:31 am

No . Having done a bottom balance and got all cells to a similar condition and state of charge will ensure the pack operates as one. It ma not be to its max potetial, but that is hampered by the poor cells. With the BMS as soon as the first cells start to go high voltage they will start to shunt power and shut down the charger. The difference could be a substantial amount of power storage difference, and a few ma of current through a bleed resistor wont make that difference up for the lower voltage cells capable of taking more power.
The initial high volatge cells tend to be the ones with either poor capacity or the ones that were put into the pack with higher initial power content. Again bottom balancing when the pack is built and initialially used is of great importance for the overall state of a packs health. Just using the cells as supplied cannot guarantee that the pack is well balanced. Top balancing at best will over charge the high voltage cells, but will never get a pack to a good state. If a cell is going high voltage because its of a low capacity the the BMS will attempt to take that power out of it to balance the Voltage, so reducing the stored power even more. You cannot just go on chargeing any Lifepo4 or Lic co or any sort of Li battery in the same way you can a Nicad or Lead acid cell to balance up the cells.
Good luck with this, its going to take a bit of effort in dealing with each cell and will take some time. Worth it in the end. And worth getting right for the sake of the good cells long life.

Grumpy-b

genawin
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:39 am
Location: north somerset

Re: Eco Light / system

Postby genawin » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:57 am

Thanks Beemer / Grumpy , for your much appreciated comments , i'm trying to put together a cell heating system at the moment in between bailing / pumping out friends and neighbours houses (my nearest village is Chew stoke !)
If anyone knows how to fool or disable the eco system it would be handy.


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