Electric single seater race car.

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Razorbill
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Electric single seater race car.

Postby Razorbill » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:25 pm

Hello all!

I'm looking to convert a single seater racing car to electric drive and I'm finding it extremely difficult to get meaningful answers to technical questions. Perhaps someone on the forum can help?

The car is (and will be) used for sprinting and speed hillclimbing on tarmac.

Currently the car runs a Suzuki GSX-R2 1000cc bike engine which develops 185hp. This gives a 0-60mph of around 3 secs, and a top speed of 125 mph. The car weighs 298kgs plus driver (68kgs). The GSXR engine weighs 60 kgs, so removing it and all the other stuff will reduce the car down to approx 230kgs.

Each competitive 'run' is usually less than 1 mile (30-45 sec), and there are a maximum of 6 runs in a day. Therefore the car needs enough battery power for 6 miles in a day, and can be re-charged overnight.
Because of the nature of the sport I'll need to have max power on tap most of the time, particularly as some tracks have an average inclination of 1 in 9.

Although I've read up on converting from ICE to electric, it's still not straightforward (to me...) as to what motor size I need, voltage, battery size and controller etc, although I anticipate a voltage of 72-96v.

It seems that Lithium phosphate batteries are the best choice, although I know they're what's going to make it expensive. I also gather an AC motor would be the best choice.



Hope someone can help!! :D

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qdos
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Postby qdos » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:18 pm

We've been working on a 2 seater which would do something similar in performance drop me a PM with your contact info

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:02 am

I think what you're aiming for is feasible, but batteries are the main issue. There is only one type of LiFePO4 cell around that will give you the very high maximum discharge rating you need, A123. The snags are that the cells are small, so you need lots of them, plus A123 won't cell individual cells in bulk. To get them you need to buy power tool packs and dismantle them, unless, like the Killacycle team you can persuade A123 to sponsor you. (see here for details of the Killacycle: http://www.killacycle.com/)

Rather strangely, I'd recommend looking at ordinary lithium polymer cells, despite the safety issues (which are primarily about charging). Yours is a specialist application where weight and maximum discharge current dominate, capacity, life and absolute safety in a "normal" vehicle environment are less important. RC modellers have been using LiPo cells at very high discharge rates for years and have learned how to deal with the safety issues.

LiPo will also give you a higher system voltage for a given number of cells, as LiPo cells work at about 3.7V rather than the 3.2V for LiFePO4. The cells will also be a lot lighter, as they will be pouch type flat packs. Kokam seems to be a well-respected brand; they make cells that will discharge at up to about 30C, which is on a par with the A123 LiFePO4 cells. Most other LiFePO4 cells seem limited to about 5C to 10C maximum at the moment, hence my thoughts that LiPo might be better for this application.

To deal with any safety issues, it might be an idea to consider a battery pack that could be fairly easily jettisoned, or at least has a quick release for rapid removal. Although a battery fire is very unlikely, a lithium fire is an exceedingly unpleasant event by all accounts. An acquaintance who has built an electric paramotor is using LiPo cells with no problems, but has taken this precaution of building in a jettison system.

Motor choice comes down to looking for those with the highest torque and speed range for a given weight. I would hazard a guess that a pair of the big Lemco 200 or Perm 132 PMDC motors might be an option. Both can run at a few hundred amps for short periods, both weigh around 10 - 11kg each (pretty light for their power) and both would give similar peak power outputs (around 15kW each, perhaps a bit more if over-run). Although it doesn't sound much, 30kW of electric motor power in something this light will be pretty quick.

System voltage will need to be up around 96V or more, to give you the speed range you need.

I don't think you need a gearbox or diff/transaxle, just hook up one motor per drive shaft via a couple of big chain drives. You could consider fitting some form of slipper clutch connecting the two drive shafts to allow better traction off the line, by allowing both motors to drive one wheel if traction is poorer on one side. I'm sure the torque and speed range of these motors should be OK for the hill climbing. In my old hill climb Clan Crusader I never used anything other than first and second gear, although I frequently ended up with the rev counter banging on the 12,000rpm stop.............

Good luck, it sounds like an interesting project.

Jeremy

Razorbill
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Postby Razorbill » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:17 pm

Qdos - I've pm'd you, but I'm not sure if it's gone as It's still not yet in my 'sent' box. Can you confirm you've received it please?

Jeremy. Thanks for your reply. Clan Crusader hillclimber eh? That's my era!! If you ever go to Gurston, look me up. I've an entry there later this month.

R

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:43 pm

I ran the Clan in the South West sprint and hill climb series for a couple of years, prior to that I raced a Mini for a while. The Clan was run in the road car class, which meant keeping it road legal and driving to and from each event (no trailering allowed). The engine was a Hartwell 998, running twin 40 Dellortos and an R22 cam, probably putting out about 100 - 110bhp at about 9000rpm (revving it over 12,000 was just to save changing up to third on fast hills - the drop in power was an acceptable trade for the time lost due to another gear change). Despite the reputation of the Imp engine, I found that my wet liner, Wills-ringed, Hartwell-built, Imp Sport motor was exceptionally reliable - it went two seasons without a rebuild. Transaxles were another matter. I got used to changing them frequently, as the things would strip second gear or break shafts for a pastime. I only got the 'box to be reliable when I switched it to a Jack Knight straight cut, dog engagement one, which was hellishly noisy for road use (the Clan was my only form of transport!).

Do you know how much torque your getting at the wheels at the moment, by any chance? It'd be interesting to compare usable torque from the bike engine to that from a couple of seriously over-amped big diameter PM motors. My guess is that the electric motors will give a great deal more torque off the line, plus it would be very simple to add traction control into the control loop, especially if you use one motor per rear wheel, with separate controllers. Whether or not such a system would be within the regulations I don't know. We didn't have such stuff when I was playing around on the hills!

Jeremy

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qdos
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Postby qdos » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:08 pm

A quick reply as it's gone midnight Yes got your message I'll try and call tomorrow if I have time.

By the way this is a leccy vehicle site so quit the petrol stuff you two, you'll upset people :wink: I've got a Ginetta G27 by the way :twisted: which I built too

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EVguru
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Postby EVguru » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:51 am

I've been putting together an electric hillclimb car from an old VanDiemen RF79 Formula Ford 1600 for some years now. Unless you go the way of the Gravitron Lotus 7 look-a-like with multiple low voltage drive systems, then what you need is more voltage.

I'm using a 192 volt 680 Amp controller, like I used in my VW Scirocco.

Hillclimb and sprint are all about power density in the batteries, rather than energy density, so lead acid are still a valid and cost effective power source.
Paul

http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.compton.vispa.com/the_named

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qdos
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Postby qdos » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:14 am

EVguru wrote:Hillclimb and sprint are all about power density in the batteries, rather than energy density, so lead acid are still a valid and cost effective power source.


Funny you should say that Paul :wink: Totally agree


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