EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

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Kevin Sharpe
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EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Kevin Sharpe » Mon May 07, 2012 8:35 pm

Home charging with EDF Energy why get a home charging unit - "And while it is, in principal, possible to plug an electric vehicle into a regular household power supply using a 13-amp three-pin plug, there are safety implications that every new 'EV' owner needs to consider"

http://www.thechargingpoint.com/knowledge-hub/Home-charging-with-EDF-Energy/Home-charging-with-EDF-Energy-Why-get-a-home-charging-unit.html

If you want the choice to charge on low cost, 13A sockets in future, you might want to comment on this article before charging on a home socket becomes a thing of the past :shock:
Kevin Sharpe - Founder and Patron for UK registered charity Zero Carbon World. Founder and Chairman Mainpine Group. http://about.me/kevinsharpe

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retepsnikrep
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby retepsnikrep » Mon May 07, 2012 10:01 pm

I agree to a point under a 3kw load a UK plug is marginal. :shock:

A cheap plug and a cheap socket incereases the danger even more.
Ditto old tarnished pins and sloppy fuses etc.

The socket wiring is not so much of an issue, it's the contact between the plug pins and socket and the seating and quality of the 13A fuse which causes problems IMHO.

Charging on a 13A plug should probably be limited to 10A for general safety.
Regards Peter

Two MK1 Honda Insight's. One running 20ah A123 Lithium pack. One 8ah BetterBattery Nimh pack.
One HCH1 Civic Hybrid running 60ah A123 Lithium pack.

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Kevin Sharpe
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Kevin Sharpe » Mon May 07, 2012 10:49 pm

retepsnikrep wrote:Charging on a 13A plug should probably be limited to 10A for general safety.
Most (all?) EVSE provided by production car manufacturers for 13A sockets are limited to 10A or less. I'm sure we all agree that a poor installation would be unsafe, however that's not the point here. EDF and Schneider are trying to ensure that everyone buys a £1000 Charging Station and they reinforced the fact by showing pictures at EcoVelocity of ~50M extension leads snaking across public paths and down lamp posts.

The BVS needs to stand up to this NOW. If we don't take on these companies then eventually charging at home from domestic sockets will be illegal... is that what you want?
Kevin Sharpe - Founder and Patron for UK registered charity Zero Carbon World. Founder and Chairman Mainpine Group. http://about.me/kevinsharpe

Grumpy-b
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Grumpy-b » Tue May 08, 2012 7:15 pm

Most of the new generation of EVs have intelligent cables that limit the charge from a 13amp socket to 10 amps. So I dont see their arguement, apart from trying to get you to spend lots on new charging kit.
Personally I dont go near a 13amp plug with my Berlingo. Berlingos readily see them off. I have recently removed 4 from vehicles wher they have melted. Especially with outside sockets with covers.
The attached is a pic of an Electromotive lead used on a Partner I recently aquired. This goes to show the point of using an appropriate socket. 16amp as a minimum for Berlingos

Still new cars take what they need from the appropriate power source. This is clearly an effort by the suppliers to make additional cash. Or is it finally admitting that you need a serious power supply to charge your leaf from flat,to full overnight on eco 7. You wont do that on a 13amp socket downsized to 10amp.

Grumpy-b
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timpootle
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby timpootle » Tue May 08, 2012 9:57 pm

I think we are beginning to get communications failure between the engineers and the politicians.

The engineers are absolutely correct that drawing 3kW through a 13A socket for 5 hours has "safety implications", as GrumpyB's photo shows. An engineer knows enough to be careful and sensible, and blame no-one but himself if his house burns down.

I agree with Kevin that despite these "implications", WE MUST NOT LEGISLATE AGAINST SIMPLE CHARGING.
Tim Crumpton

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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Beemer » Wed May 09, 2012 2:58 pm

They have a reason for doing what they do. Negative advertising should be met with negative sales.

I think we all must agree. The points of view expressed here are but ripples in the deep blue sea. For general high current industrial/home outdoor we can use plugs and sockets like the IP44's, available from 16A to 32A and cheap as chips, i.e.:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLUE-230V-240V-VOLT-32A-AMP-WALL-BENCH-INLET-CARAVAN-HOOK-UP-2P-E-APPLIANCE-IP44-/220939995074?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D120876877626%26ps%3D54

The best trick is to connect then apply the switch to remove arc wear/heating issues of plugs and sockets.

The modern day EV plug is the J1772 standard like we see in the Nissan Leaf for example. It will eventually be replaced for one plug that literally uses every possible input plus higher outputs than we see now. It's one ugly mother but like the J1772, will need some electronics and it's bigger too!

Grumpy-b
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Grumpy-b » Wed May 09, 2012 4:15 pm

It not connecting / turning on / off its poor sockets poor plugs, wear and just generally being under capable of handling the power. Internally the worst point is where the fuse connects they get loose and very hot. Worst are the flexible plugs like Perma plug.

All of the new generation of vehicles only pull 10 amps from the 13amp socket.

Adopting a universal standard is the way ahead. But the power points in many locations will need to cover mobility scooters, Electric bikes and motorcycles, in the short term if not ultimately.

The electronics mentioned in the post above are in the simple box that Nissan have before the 13amp plug. I gather its not complicated inside.

For the moment I will stick with 16amp plugs cables and connectors. I regularly have to use my 3m berlingo lead with a 5m extension. It works well and if anyone needs 2.5 t&e Lead (White Vinyl) I have plenty to make your own extensions.

Grumpy-b

Beemer
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Beemer » Wed May 09, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Grumpy :)

The new car standard. The J1772 does not throw out juice until the sensor wires say so. It tells the box to throttle or simply turn off the power. The electronic module in the car cuts/controls the juice on the wall!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

Metal socket and module, i.e.:-
http://evtvshop.projectooc.com/products.php?cat=12

Gun?
http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/dsi-dsi ... dp/2066624

And its innards. :)
http://www.tucsonev.com/otherJ1772.html

However, I'd be more than happy to stick with with 16A or 32A Commando plugs and sockets.

Grumpy-b
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Grumpy-b » Wed May 09, 2012 5:59 pm

Yes but no. I was meaning the other way around.
When connecting such a vehicle as the Leaf to the 13amp supply the vehicle has to know what to do. So Nissan have a box on the 13 amp end of the cable that tells the car that its only to draw 10 amps. They may also have a relay system in as well. Hence they dont overload the 13 amp mains when connected, and actually charge..
You could cut off the 13 amp plug, put a 16 amp one on, but it would still only draw 10 amps.

Grumpy-b

Beemer
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Re: EDF message that 13A sockets have 'safety implications'

Postby Beemer » Wed May 09, 2012 6:52 pm

Interesting point you made there Mr. Grumpy. The Leaf's side is a 16A Commando plug?
IP44 to 10A current limiter, can't be a cheap device in my book.

Stuff 13A, fit our own IP44!

£14 +P&P :-
http://www.conrad.com/CEE-CARAVAN-POWER ... 64_0809023

As you seen J1772-2009's are still expensive and just like the Solar roof industry is ripe for squeezing massive profits out of people to install EVSE's. I have read the whole shebang of one of these can be fitted for £1000 complete with a high current level II supply.

Kev is right to point out the horseplay. Avoid them from now on.


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