Battery longevity, general prices and recharging costs

[Deddly]

OK forgive the newbie post but I've only recently become interested in EVs and I don't know a great deal about batteries and charging etc.

1) I was wondering: if I were to buy, say, a Tesla car (I wish ) or another (soon to be) production EV, how long could I expect the battery to last for? (life expectancy in years/miles - not range) What is the difference in longevity for Lead Acid, NiMH, Li-Ion and all the others? I heard Nickel-Iron (I think that's what they're called) batteries are about the same as Lead Acids for power/weight, but they last for years and years, does anyone use them?

2) When (if?) the battery needs replacing, how much would that probably cost to have done?

3) How much does it cost you guys per mile in electricity costs? Most of you seem to be running conversions or upgraded older EVs, how do your figures compare with the newest technology we're promised will be availible in a few years' time?

I'm interested in saving the planet and all that but I can't afford to lose money on it unfortunately, so I'm working out if it's REALLY cheaper to run an EV or not. I'm particularly interested in answers to question 3)...

Thanks for you time =o)
--
Ed

[ChrisB]

3) How much does it cost you guys per mile in electricity costs? Most of you seem to be running conversions or upgraded older EVs, how do your figures compare with the newest technology we're promised will be availible in a few years' time?

Well my berlingo costs me around 2p per mile in electricity based on re-charging using off peak electricity.

I'm interested in saving the planet and all that but I can't afford to lose money on it unfortunately, so I'm working out if it's REALLY cheaper to run an EV or not.

Ah the age old question eh to be honest I think you'll find your not alone you will find VERY few people who will actively spend more money just because it will save the planet, dont get me wrong there are people out there that will do this and equally there are people out there who will spend very little money and live a very green life style to help the planet however I think you'll find they are the folks living in mud huts without all the day to day stuff that we live with and good on them for that.

My take on it is if I can save money and be green then thats good, chances of being able to afford a new EV is not viable not to mention the fact I will NEVER buy a new vehicle due to loss you take when it leaves the showroom (now thats what you call flushing money down the drain) All my EV's have been either 2nd hand or conversions, personally I dont think I'll ever do another conversion due to the cost factor to get something that is practical, also why try and fudge something togther when there are ready made stuff already out there
The Berlingo is my fav todate ( yeah here I go again, on about that dam van again ) but it does do what it says on the tin and it does it very well in deed I recon. I'm a big fan of the G-Wiz but not such a big fan of its top speed if they could bring its top speed up to 65mph (same as the Berlingo) and enjoy a range of 60miles then I'll be the first to be looking out for second hand ones

My Blingo cost me £2K second hand, I have since had to buy another non runner for spares but if the milage carries on the way it is this year alone I will have saved +700GBP in running costs, if the van carries on like it is then in less than 3yrs I recon the van will have paid for itself something no other ICE vehicle except say a push bike will ever do (and other EV's of course but only if you can buy them at the right price.)

ChrisB

[Deddly]

Well my berlingo costs me around 2p per mile in electricity based on re-charging using off peak electricity.

Interesting. How much electricity can 2p buy you in England off-peak?

I'm interested in saving the planet and all that but I can't afford to lose money on it unfortunately, so I'm working out if it's REALLY cheaper to run an EV or not.

My Blingo cost me £2K second hand, I have since had to buy another non runner for spares but if the milage carries on the way it is this year alone I will have saved +700GBP in running costs, if the van carries on like it is then in less than 3yrs I recon the van will have paid for itself

That sounds very good. Do you have a link I can look at about the Berlingo? All I can seem to find are links for the ICE version.
How long do you expect your battery to last for and how much will it cost to replace it?

something no other ICE vehicle except say a push bike will ever do

Whoah, a push bike with an ICE? Surely you don't mean...these things?

--
Ed

[ChopperMan]

Hi Ed,

I think I can help you with your first question.

1) I was wondering: if I were to buy, say, a Tesla car (I wish ) or another (soon to be) production EV, how long could I expect the battery to last for? (life expectancy in years/miles - not range) What is the difference in longevity for Lead Acid, NiMH, Li-Ion and all the others? I heard Nickel-Iron (I think that's what they're called) batteries are about the same as Lead Acids for power/weight, but they last for years and years, does anyone use them?

If we take an example of each battery chemistry that had sufficient capacity to power the same vehicle 50 miles, the following distances over the life time of the battery could be archived:

Lead Acid (600 cycles) 30,000 miles, 2.4 years.

NiCd (1,000 cycles) 50,000 miles, 4 years.

LiFePO4 (2,000 cycles*) 100,000 miles, 8 years.

This does assume the ideal pattern of charging for each battery chemistry and a 50 mile daily commute 250 days a year. This is based on anecdotal information, web research and professional training I have accrued over the last 12 months.

*This is the figure that most LiFePO4 manufacturers are quoting, from my own experience we (LiFeBATT) have several packs on bench testing that are now over 2,500 cycles and still discharge 80% of their original capacity. I have no doubt that at least two other manufacturers are also achieving these figures.

The upshot is that when the LiFePO4 battery industry achieves true mass production in the next 12 to 18 months, it won't be long, maybe 4 to 5 years, that the general public will be able to buy a Li battery that will outlast their vehicle chassis for the same price as the Lead Acid or NiCd original.

I'm not saying Lithium batteries will rule the EV world, for example Fork Lift's need the weight of lead acid for stability, so each chemistry will find it's market now that the OEM's and the public have a choice.

Sorry if this turned into a preach/rant

Chris, what is your personal experience, how many miles did your bingo have on it when the batteries died?

Cheers,

Ian

[marktime]

Hi deddly, I don't know if this relates directly to your questions but it is a related theme that I have seen discussed elsewhere.

Most (all) traditional motor manufacturers have a business model that generates income not only from selling cars but from the regular service business.

Once you remove the need to change the oil/ filter on an ICE, there is not much left to make any money out of. Granted all cars will share braking and suspension systems but any EV with regen braking will have brake pads that run for miles (ask a Prius driver).

So unless the service busness can be restructured to exploit battery maintanance the traditional car producers will have to increase their revenue by adding the lost revenue to the sale price.

That said the only real world example of a production EV we have to look at is the G-Wiz distributed by Going Green.

They have stuck with the traditional model of a pretty honest purchase price but tied in to a service contract that many think is a bit steep!

The other senario is to lease batteries from the producer, this invloves being tied to a service contract sometimes with limits / charges related to usage/ mileage.

Only time will tell if these existing models will be adopted or something more imaginative will come along.

discuss..............MarkTime

[Deddly]

Thanks for the information everyone. It looks like batteries aren't QUITE up to the standards I need - yet. The problem is, I can't afford to run two cars (and don't have time to look after two cars, either). This puts me in a tough situation with transport because I'm probably going to need at least a 150 mile range, and would like to have 200-250.

There are some things that put me off EVs (even though I still think they're great):

1) The fact that current batteries have a short life-span and expensive replacement costs makes me wonder if I would save money driving a pure EV - please someone correct me if I'm wrong!

2) The EVs that tie you down to an expensive service contract or a battery lease totally ruin the whole idea for me - that of being less dependant on companies, and saving money.

3) What if I want to drive away on holiday?

4) A lot of EVs are too slow, I need to drive at 56mph for extended periods of time.

Now, a hybrid or an EV with a range extender, on the other hand - might be what I need. Right now I'm still very interested in this air car idea: Cheap to buy; decent range; range extendable to nearly 2000km by using one tank of fuel (which can be alcohol, petrol, diesel, or basically any liquid that burns, it seems); Electric motor for slow driving (parking, manouvering...) - it seems pretty good, and they appear to have an answer to every skeptic.

I dunno though, I guess I'm just totally confused about the whole "what vehicle should I buy to save me money" thing - but I don't like the idea of staying with oil, not with the oil peak nearly here.

Who can give me suggestions?

--
Ed

[qdos]

Not sure what kind of car you are looking for exactly but how about a Honda Insight or a Prius or maybe the Renault Kangoo as an Import?

[marktime]

Deddly, keep a tight hold on that hybrid idea.

Here is one to think about.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2003-53-HONDA-CIV ... dZViewItem

It is alarmingly cheap so don't do anything rash. Be sure to look for cars registered after 31/03/2001 they quallify for the lower VED and should actually be £15 not £35 as quoted.

Try tapping Honda and Toyota dealers for test drives of Civic IMA and Prius, they will usually offer you a test drive if you order a brochure from their web site. Once you have sat in one and realised what they are like have a look at the 2nd hand market. (whichever suits your budget)

Have a look at the Hybrids thread, there are more details about models and their warranties. Certain models of Prius have an 8 year warranty on the hybrid drive!

The Toyota Prius has just marked 10 years of production (nearly all are still going strong) so it is well established technology, the Honda Insight goes back even further but they were never sold here so are hard to come by.

If you want to know more about the Prius I can bore for England and my specialist subject is running a hybrid as a company car.

MarkTime

[mjoinson]

I'm probably about to break the record for the shortest time someone's been in the BVS before being chucked out.. Depending on where you live, it sounds to me that the best solution to your vehicle needs is a diesel running on home made biodiesel. You remove your dependence on big oil, save money and still get decent range and performance. (I've done 120mph in germany on 100% biodiesel). Stop start, and short-med range stuff is currently where pure EVs score in overall save the planetness which is what most cars spend most of their time doing.

[ChrisB]

Interesting. How much electricity can 2p buy you in England off-peak?

Just under 0.5kwh

That sounds very good. Do you have a link I can look at about the Berlingo? All I can seem to find are links for the ICE version.
How long do you expect your battery to last for and how much will it cost to replace it?

Well have a look in our own berlingo section or try www.berlingo-e.co.uk as Robins site does have a lot of detail on there about it.
Batteries should last for about 65000 miles or more but early examples appear to have had a issue with the batteries and would kill a set in about 10-20K

ChrisB