New to EV motorbikes

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Fat-tony71
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New to EV motorbikes

Postby Fat-tony71 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 pm

Hi,

I've decided after much contemplation to build an EV motorbike. My base will be a Honda Fireblade 98 model. I have fully stripped the ICE gear off it, Soon to go on "that site" for funds!. I'm looking for the weight to be as close to the original as I can, range of 50 miles max and a top speed of 90 mph. Now I know this is ambituous for a first build, but if I take my time and construct as much myself I feel I can keep costs down.
This is how it started.
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Stripping down.
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Black powder coated.
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Tank to be carbon covered, also to house controller etc
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The insperation for this build was an American GSX-R build I found by Noah Podolefsky, Its an amazing build that I would like to mimic. I have contacted D and D motors in the States for advice on UK shipping or Suppliers, But if anyone has info on motor suppliers in the UK it would be very helpfull. Its gonna be a slow build, so bear with me on updates, But any movement will be posted.

Cheers

Daz :mrgreen:

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Jeremy
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Jeremy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:02 pm

Should be a nice project, but I'm not sure that a motor like that is a particularly good choice, as it's big and heavy for the power it can deliver. 62lb is a very big lump of a motor for a motorcycle, especially when something like an Agni 95-R will give you 16kW continuous (about (21hp) and 30kW peak (about 40hp), be a lot smaller and only weighs 11kg, or about 24lbs (http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=47)

Unfortunately, UK sources for EV parts are thin on the ground. The good news is that the Agni is really British, as it was designed by Cedric Lynch.

Jeremy

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Fat-tony71
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Fat-tony71 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Jeremy wrote:Should be a nice project, but I'm not sure that a motor like that is a particularly good choice, as it's big and heavy for the power it can deliver. 62lb is a very big lump of a motor for a motorcycle, especially when something like an Agni 95-R will give you 16kW continuous (about (21hp) and 30kW peak (about 40hp), be a lot smaller and only weighs 11kg, or about 24lbs (http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=47)

Unfortunately, UK sources for EV parts are thin on the ground. The good news is that the Agni is really British, as it was designed by Cedric Lynch.

Jeremy


Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the advice, I am very new to the whole EV thing so I may need pointing in the right direction! I will have a look at Agni, I have friends in the US so shipping/import can be easier, also have friends in Kuwait who can assist ;)

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Jeremy
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Jeremy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:08 pm

You'll find that shipping heavy stuff can be a pain, it's usually both expensive and slow. Batteries present the biggest shipping problem at the moment, as the companies are implementing safety regulations that mean that big shipments can't go by air very easily. As virtually all of them come from China, one way or another, that can push up the price by the time stuff gets here.

There is at least one contact on here for high capacity LiFePO4 cells, but can't offhand recall the details. Might be worth a post in the battery section.

When it comes to motors, those big sep ex ones that some of the US guys seem so fond of aren't great in terms of efficiency, weight or size. If you want a British option, and are prepared for a little less power, you could look at an original Lynch motor, like the LEM 200: http://lemcoltd.com/ The D135 motor is pretty much the same weight, size and peak power as the Agni 95-R and made here in the UK, so cheaper shipping and no duty. Lemco also stock controllers, contactors etc, so you could get most of what you need from them.

The only UK stockist of Magura throttles (probably the best twist grip throttle for an electric motorcycle) seems to be 4QD: http://www.4qd.co.uk/accs/pots.html#mag 4QD also make controllers, but only up to 48V, so not really much use to you.

Jeremy

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Fat-tony71
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Fat-tony71 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:24 pm

Thanks Jeremy,

Thats a huge help in deciding the route to take, and 11kg is light!. I guess that gives me more room for batterys!.

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Jeremy
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Jeremy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:30 pm

Glad to help.

As you probably already know, light is good on a motorcycle. I'm in the process of rebuilding (very slowly) my smaller electric motorcycle project (it's based on an old RD50MX), taking out the heavy Mars motor (it weighs around 15kg) and replacing it with a much smaller (around 2.5kg!) high rpm brushless motor that is OK for around 12kW max. This will let me fit a pretty big LiPo battery pack and get reasonable performance and range.

Jeremy

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Fat-tony71
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Fat-tony71 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:50 pm

Jeremy wrote:Glad to help.

As you probably already know, light is good on a motorcycle. I'm in the process of rebuilding (very slowly) my smaller electric motorcycle project (it's based on an old RD50MX), taking out the heavy Mars motor (it weighs around 15kg) and replacing it with a much smaller (around 2.5kg!) high rpm brushless motor that is OK for around 12kW max. This will let me fit a pretty big LiPo battery pack and get reasonable performance and range.

Jeremy

I used to have an RD50MX field bike years back. Yes light is the best route, With the Agni would I need a gearbox or just go for a big rear sprocket? I'm going to make a card mockup of the Agni this week to look at instillation postions etc. I'm hoping to do most of the fabrication work myself, Investing in some new tools for the cave!. I've looked at plenty of LED technology for headlights and rear lights, I'm gonna run them off their own 12v circuit, I dont exspect to be out in the dark too much

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Jeremy
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Jeremy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:55 pm

Fat-tony71 wrote:I used to have an RD50MX field bike years back. Yes light is the best route, With the Agni would I need a gearbox or just go for a big rear sprocket? I'm going to make a card mockup of the Agni this week to look at instillation postions etc. I'm hoping to do most of the fabrication work myself, Investing in some new tools for the cave!. I've looked at plenty of LED technology for headlights and rear lights, I'm gonna run them off their own 12v circuit, I dont exspect to be out in the dark too much


The Agni 95-R, run on 84V, will spin at up to around 6000 rpm no load, so maybe about 5500 or less under load. If you want 90mph, with an 18" rear wheel with a rolling diameter of around 24", then the rear wheel needs to spin at around 1250rpm, so you'd need a final drive reduction of around 4.4:1

I reckon a single stage reduction should do that OK, albeit with a custom large rear sprocket.

I was running a 12t front and 48t rear on the RD50MX with the Mars, but will need to go to a two stage reduction with a jack shaft for the new motor, as that will spin at around 9000rpm top end.

I switched all the lights to LEDs, but it was tough getting E marked ones to be legal. I ended up removing the indicators for the inspection (I couldn't find E marked LED ones), fitting an E marked LED tail/brake light (bought from eBay) and changing the headlight bulb (which bizarrely doesn't need to be E marked - go figure) for a couple of high power LEDs .

I have a 20A DC DC converter to run all the normal bike systems, lights, horn etc, so that I can use the standard switchgear. I bought the converter from eBay, too, for around £10. If you're going for around 84V, then you can probably use a cheap laptop power supply as a DC DC converter. These work fine on DC and usually work down to around 80V or so input. If you search around on eBay you'll almost certainly find a bunch of them fairly cheaply. If you're staying under 75V, then something like this little 5A converter might do for LED lights etc: http://cgi.ebay.com/BTC-POWER-CONVERTER ... 4cf4c31756

Jeremy

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Fat-tony71
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Fat-tony71 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:31 pm

Jeremy wrote:
Fat-tony71 wrote:I used to have an RD50MX field bike years back. Yes light is the best route, With the Agni would I need a gearbox or just go for a big rear sprocket? I'm going to make a card mockup of the Agni this week to look at instillation postions etc. I'm hoping to do most of the fabrication work myself, Investing in some new tools for the cave!. I've looked at plenty of LED technology for headlights and rear lights, I'm gonna run them off their own 12v circuit, I dont exspect to be out in the dark too much


The Agni 95-R, run on 84V, will spin at up to around 6000 rpm no load, so maybe about 5500 or less under load. If you want 90mph, with an 18" rear wheel with a rolling diameter of around 24", then the rear wheel needs to spin at around 1250rpm, so you'd need a final drive reduction of around 4.4:1

I reckon a single stage reduction should do that OK, albeit with a custom large rear sprocket.

I was running a 12t front and 48t rear on the RD50MX with the Mars, but will need to go to a two stage reduction with a jack shaft for the new motor, as that will spin at around 9000rpm top end.

I switched all the lights to LEDs, but it was tough getting E marked ones to be legal. I ended up removing the indicators for the inspection (I couldn't find E marked LED ones), fitting an E marked LED tail/brake light (bought from eBay) and changing the headlight bulb (which bizarrely doesn't need to be E marked - go figure) for a couple of high power LEDs .

I have a 20A DC DC converter to run all the normal bike systems, lights, horn etc, so that I can use the standard switchgear. I bought the converter from eBay, too, for around £10. If you're going for around 84V, then you can probably use a cheap laptop power supply as a DC DC converter. These work fine on DC and usually work down to around 80V or so input. If you search around on eBay you'll almost certainly find a bunch of them fairly cheaply. If you're staying under 75V, then something like this little 5A converter might do for LED lights etc: http://cgi.ebay.com/BTC-POWER-CONVERTER ... 4cf4c31756

Jeremy


Cheers,
Is there a good part of the site to look at the legal/dvla side of EV's? I understand the part of telling them about the powerplant change, Will I need an engineers report or a dvla inspection?.

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Jeremy
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Re: New to EV motorbikes

Postby Jeremy » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:52 pm

Fat-tony71 wrote:Is there a good part of the site to look at the legal/dvla side of EV's? I understand the part of telling them about the powerplant change, Will I need an engineers report or a dvla inspection?.


There are a couple of stories about the different ways local offices have handled things, but that's about it I think.

My experience was that they were painfully slow and made numerous errors. I think they issued me with three or four registration documents before I gave up and just accepted that they were never going to get it right.

The major problem I found was communicating with DVLA. Years ago you could ring your local office, invariably speak to someone who knew how to do what you were after and get things sorted quickly. They've now taken away the incoming phone lines from local offices, so you have to phone Swansea. It's pot luck if you get someone who knows what you're trying to do or a numpty - most of the time you get numpties, it seems. Here's a summary of what I went through:

1. First of all, I sent the V5 to Swansea with the new electric motor serial number, a request for a change of motor type and taxation class and change of fuel details. I got a letter back asking for the CC of the new electric motor (see what I mean about numpties?) and an engineers report from the garage that fitted it.

2. I wrote chapter and verse back, including full details of motor power curves, battery voltage, controller limits, gear ratio, the receipt for the motor, an explanation that it was an electric motor so didn't have a cubic capacity, plus I included a full technical report on the conversion. They wrote back to me asking me, yet again, for the CC of the new electric motor.

3. I wrote again, restating that it was now an EV, so didn't have a cubic capacity, only to get yet another letter saying they couldn't change the details without having written confirmation of the engine CC..........

4. At this point I made a formal complaint, having obtained the details of who to complain to via the Swansea "helpline" (who couldn't help directly). This resulted in a chap from the local DVLA office calling me to sort things out. I explained to the local DVLA chap the saga so far with Swansea, he didn't seem phased at all, he just said that if he came over and looked at the motor serial number and bike frame number it'd keep Swansea happy.

5. The local DVLA chap was as good as his word. He popped over, checked the frame and motor serial numbers, filled in a form and said Swansea would send me a V5 in the post within a couple of weeks. There was no inspection, as such, really just a check that the bike wasn't made from stolen parts, I think. This chap did give me a useful tip. He said if I ever want to do something like this again, write to Swansea and ask them to hand it to their local office to deal with.

6. About ten days after the "inspection" I got a new V5. It was completely wrong in all respects, even down to them having somehow decided to change the colour of the bike from black to red. It also still showed it as having the original engine and CC.....................

7. Luckily, the local chap had given me his mobile number, so I could call him directly if I had a problem with Swansea. He managed to get Swansea to issue a new V5, this time showing that the bike was electric and no longer ran on petrol, but unfortunately it still gave the colour as red and the engine serial number as being the old one, not the one for the electric motor.

8. I sent the V5 back, yet again, with a letter explaining the bike had never been red, and that the colour and engine serial number needed changing on the V5. They sent me back another V5, this time showing the bike as being electric and black, but still giving the wrong engine number and now the wrong taxation class.

At this point I gave up, as it all got too much like hard work. The V5 is wrong, but who cares, I have a mountain of evidence to show that Swansea have repeatedly cocked up, so I can't be bothered to try and get it changed any more.

Others have had somewhat simpler adventures with DVLA, but most seem to have some difficulty with them one way or another. The main thing is to make sure you have enough parts of the original bike to avoid MSVA testing, as that can be a pain. Usually, if you retain the frame and running gear you're OK and don't need a test (other than an MOT).

Jeremy


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