Here's all the product info on your batteries.
http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_STM___High_energy_module_for_traction_293_44/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2
Ours are the STM 5-100 MRE modules.
Cogito, why didn't the guy your talking about return the new battery to saft if it was underweighted?
I've seen some double distillers online. Anyone know why you need to double distill? Isn't the 1st distilling enough.
Help! Berlingo battery replacements
moojw wrote:ChrisB, you mentioned a supply of "pure" water thats used in the medical industry, is this supply something others could also purchase/use?
Sadly not, its via a friend who kindly "aquires" me 20 or so ltrs when I require it.
timpootle wrote:I fear I poisoned my batteries on my last watering. Range is now down to 20 miles, only just enough to get to Manchester and back. This makes me very sad.
Use the cleanest water you can find, I think we must say.
Noooooooooo what happened Tim
what went wrong, are you sure its poor water or not just a couple of cells that have failed ??Flying John wrote:......... quality is so important and it makes you wonder how many of our Blingos have got a build up of crud in the bottom of the cells due to garages using impure water of the de-ionised kind.
John
You can see the dealers now just buying in standard battery topping up water, and TBH thats pretty naff and its REALLY important not to contaminate the Saft units with any form of acid .
cianof wrote:I've seen some double distillers online. Anyone know why you need to double distill? Isn't the 1st distilling enough.
Does this help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water
ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!
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Flying John
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- Location: Kent
I think the medical grade of pure water is ddH2O. It was certainly this that was used in the labs I used to go to. There they had two steam distillers and they would distilled the already distilled water and run it through a UV light to remove any bacterial contamination before bottling it in sterile bottles. This was just to clean (final rinse) things like microscope plates etc.
Double distilling is also a method used in the manufacture of drinking spirits too. But it is done in one process whereby the initial distilate is cooled and passes straight back to the source mash or liquor halfway up the steam column. You sometimes find in the USA they have home brew kit that tries to do the same thing by only allowing the more volatile alchohols to get to the top of the steam pipe before being finally condensed at a point where the condensate leaves the distiller rather than falling back to the boiling mash.
Returning batteries to SAFT is possible. They are obliged to offer a re-cycling facility for the Ni and the cadmium and I beleive also offer a service to refurbish old cells. Since the plates are not eroded in the same way as Pb cells are this can only be a question of opening, washing the crud out and refilling with the correct Alkaline solution. What they charge for this , I have no idea.
John
Double distilling is also a method used in the manufacture of drinking spirits too. But it is done in one process whereby the initial distilate is cooled and passes straight back to the source mash or liquor halfway up the steam column. You sometimes find in the USA they have home brew kit that tries to do the same thing by only allowing the more volatile alchohols to get to the top of the steam pipe before being finally condensed at a point where the condensate leaves the distiller rather than falling back to the boiling mash.
Returning batteries to SAFT is possible. They are obliged to offer a re-cycling facility for the Ni and the cadmium and I beleive also offer a service to refurbish old cells. Since the plates are not eroded in the same way as Pb cells are this can only be a question of opening, washing the crud out and refilling with the correct Alkaline solution. What they charge for this , I have no idea.
John
SAFT dont offer a re-cycling service they direct you to a firm in the midlands, who will charge you a bout £250/ tonne to deal with them. They are all then shipped to france where there is sited one of the only european plants that will re-cycle Ni cads.
G&P Batteries Ltd
Crescent Works Industrial Park
Willenhall Road
Darlaston
Wednesbury
WS10 8JR
Tel; 0121 568 3200
Fax: 0121 568 3201
No re-furb is offered. I relly dont think there is any obligation on SAFT to offer such a service.
Grumpy-b
G&P Batteries Ltd
Crescent Works Industrial Park
Willenhall Road
Darlaston
Wednesbury
WS10 8JR
Tel; 0121 568 3200
Fax: 0121 568 3201
No re-furb is offered. I relly dont think there is any obligation on SAFT to offer such a service.
Grumpy-b
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Flying John
- Site Staff
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:24 pm
- Location: Kent
In 1991, the EU Directive on Batteries and Accumulators (91/157/EEC) was introduced. It requires that batteries containing more 0.025% of cadmium by weight and 0.4% lead by weight to be collected separately from household waste for recycling or special disposal.
In France SNAM (Societe Nouvelle d'Affinage des Metaux) in France - performs the mechanical recycling of rechargeable NiCd batteries for SAFT.
SAFT say " In partnership with collection agencys worldwide, SAFT organise retrieval from collection points and the recycling of spent SAFT batteries.
So even if thy don't personally collect them, they do have a responsibilty (according to the eu directive) to arrange for the safe disposal and recycling of their product through it's whole life cycle. If that means directing you to G& P batts then that is their way of satisfying their responsibilites.
So they do have the responsibilty of their product through its whole life cycle. As to the responsibility to refurbish - I did not say that they had an obligation to do this. I said "I beleive also offer a service to refurbish old cells".
My reasoning for this is that wet nicads supplied by SAFT for Aircraft use are overhauled by them. They say The General overhaul is the same as a regular check except that the battery is subject to dissasembly and detailed cleaning and inspection. See http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Uploa ... DF/tn5.pdf
Whether this is financially sound for the STM100 MRE I dont know but at SAFT prices it may be.
John
In France SNAM (Societe Nouvelle d'Affinage des Metaux) in France - performs the mechanical recycling of rechargeable NiCd batteries for SAFT.
SAFT say " In partnership with collection agencys worldwide, SAFT organise retrieval from collection points and the recycling of spent SAFT batteries.
So even if thy don't personally collect them, they do have a responsibilty (according to the eu directive) to arrange for the safe disposal and recycling of their product through it's whole life cycle. If that means directing you to G& P batts then that is their way of satisfying their responsibilites.
So they do have the responsibilty of their product through its whole life cycle. As to the responsibility to refurbish - I did not say that they had an obligation to do this. I said "I beleive also offer a service to refurbish old cells".
My reasoning for this is that wet nicads supplied by SAFT for Aircraft use are overhauled by them. They say The General overhaul is the same as a regular check except that the battery is subject to dissasembly and detailed cleaning and inspection. See http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Uploa ... DF/tn5.pdf
Whether this is financially sound for the STM100 MRE I dont know but at SAFT prices it may be.
John
The avation batteries they refere to are a quite different animal to the ones we use. They also cost a lot more in the first place. They do appear to be a cell that is designed for the purpose, and can be serviced. The STM100 are most definitely not designed for taking apart. The multi walled construction doersnt make it simple to cut them open, and subsequently re-weld back to gether. I do know of one chap that has attempted it. He also found the problem was mainly degeneration of the plate structure. Its doubtful that stripping them apart etc would really be worth the trouble. If its because of a failed cell, then its probably more serious than a build up of gunk.
If anyone wants cells to strip down and play with, I have plenty available. Not blown up ones, just low voltage / partial failures.
I take no responsibility for loss of finger prints and holes in your carpets!!!!
Grumpy-b
If anyone wants cells to strip down and play with, I have plenty available. Not blown up ones, just low voltage / partial failures.
I take no responsibility for loss of finger prints and holes in your carpets!!!!
Grumpy-b
Grumpy-b wrote:If anyone wants cells to strip down and play with, I have plenty available. Not blown up ones, just low voltage / partial failures.
I take no responsibility for loss of finger prints and holes in your carpets!!!!
Grumpy-b
Or Cadmium poisoning
ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!
Interesting discussion.
The requirements for the water purity are set out in the Saft battery manual.
It is difficult to find out the specification for de-ionised water bought in industrial supply shops, but it's supposed to be "good enough". I notice that the dealerships used the same brand, so I assume it had been okayed by Saft somewhere along the line (not that I'd trust the dealerships to actually put the water in). That doesn't rule out it being old or contaminated though.
I have seen one pack rapidly degenerate immediately after watering. However, my theory is that these batteries had been abused and not maintained properly previously (they took almost 1 litre each), so I suspect that the damage was actually done before water was added, and just became apparent afterwards. Perhaps the additional stress of the maintenance charge whilst having a low electrolyte level tipped them over the edge.
My own experience using the de-ionised water is good, touch wood. The 2005 pack in my van has been watered by me at around 500-600AH overcharge since almost new, and the capacity is not noticeably less than original. That has over 50,000 miles on it.
I wouldn't be averse to improving the quality of the water though, so I'm going to look into one of those highly illegal stills mentioned above. I am not a chemist but I know one, so am going to ask for some advice also.
The requirements for the water purity are set out in the Saft battery manual.
It is difficult to find out the specification for de-ionised water bought in industrial supply shops, but it's supposed to be "good enough". I notice that the dealerships used the same brand, so I assume it had been okayed by Saft somewhere along the line (not that I'd trust the dealerships to actually put the water in). That doesn't rule out it being old or contaminated though.
I have seen one pack rapidly degenerate immediately after watering. However, my theory is that these batteries had been abused and not maintained properly previously (they took almost 1 litre each), so I suspect that the damage was actually done before water was added, and just became apparent afterwards. Perhaps the additional stress of the maintenance charge whilst having a low electrolyte level tipped them over the edge.
My own experience using the de-ionised water is good, touch wood. The 2005 pack in my van has been watered by me at around 500-600AH overcharge since almost new, and the capacity is not noticeably less than original. That has over 50,000 miles on it.
I wouldn't be averse to improving the quality of the water though, so I'm going to look into one of those highly illegal stills mentioned above. I am not a chemist but I know one, so am going to ask for some advice also.
-
Flying John
- Site Staff
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:24 pm
- Location: Kent
The spec for the de-ionised water specifies the max amount of "crud" you should get if the water is evaporated and even these low amounts would ultimately be left in your NiCad after succesive waterings.
It is also interesting to read that for each 3amperehour of overcharge aprox 1c.c of water is electrolysed into H and O. I do not know how much of that would reform into water in the STM 100 cells. But if none of it that would mean at say 600 A/H of overcharge needing over 600 c.c of distilled water per cell. My own watering experience is that I use around 5 litres for all 27 batterys after about 400 hrs of overcharge so there must be a massive reforming of H and O into water in the cells.
As for illegal stills, I don't think there is anything to fear as long as you are not making alchohol which, if you were visited by HMRC, could be tested for in the apparatus.
John
John
It is also interesting to read that for each 3amperehour of overcharge aprox 1c.c of water is electrolysed into H and O. I do not know how much of that would reform into water in the STM 100 cells. But if none of it that would mean at say 600 A/H of overcharge needing over 600 c.c of distilled water per cell. My own watering experience is that I use around 5 litres for all 27 batterys after about 400 hrs of overcharge so there must be a massive reforming of H and O into water in the cells.
As for illegal stills, I don't think there is anything to fear as long as you are not making alchohol which, if you were visited by HMRC, could be tested for in the apparatus.
John
John
HI All
As a one time biochemist we used distilled and de-ionised water fairly interchangably depending on wether we left the still in the lab on or not and had to nick water from the fancy de-ioniser that virology had! both methods should produce water free of unwanted ions but distillation is more "reliable" if slower and more expensive.
We water our berlingo with home made deionised water from a deioniser bought for around £300 and designed for battery watering, this is fed with our filtered rainwater supply which is pretty good anyway, so gives a very long cartridge life. Any water left over from a watering is used for windscreen washing etc. and a fresh batch made each time as it should never be stored.
so far so good, batteries have survived 20,000 miles under this regime (madly touching wood)
As a one time biochemist we used distilled and de-ionised water fairly interchangably depending on wether we left the still in the lab on or not and had to nick water from the fancy de-ioniser that virology had! both methods should produce water free of unwanted ions but distillation is more "reliable" if slower and more expensive.
We water our berlingo with home made deionised water from a deioniser bought for around £300 and designed for battery watering, this is fed with our filtered rainwater supply which is pretty good anyway, so gives a very long cartridge life. Any water left over from a watering is used for windscreen washing etc. and a fresh batch made each time as it should never be stored.
so far so good, batteries have survived 20,000 miles under this regime (madly touching wood)
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