Electric motorcycle race in Isle of Man TT

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cedric.lynch
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Electric motorcycle race in Isle of Man TT

Postby cedric.lynch » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:30 am

There is going to be a race for electric motorcycles as part of the 2009 Isle of Man TT, on 12 June 2009. The rules are not yet finalised but should be soon. The race will be one lap of the TT circuit, about 38 miles.
Probably the FIM rules about aerodynamics will apply (although this is not yet certain, and it is possible that there could be more than one class); these rule out full streamlining and converted Aprilias, Cagivas, Yamahas etc would be suitable.

See www.ttxgp.com for more details and how to register.

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:33 am

Cedric,

In the other thread about this (in the "Events" bit) I have wondered about the rules putting off home-brew bike entries. Amongst other things, it seems that anyone who enters will need a full ACU racing licence, with a mountain course endorsement - I've no idea how an amateur could go about getting such a thing. If it's anything like the old RAC race licence I used to have then I am pretty sure it involves proven racing experience, recognised motor sport club membership, a medical etc.

Does anyone know what the rules are for the bikes themselves? I know that for a road car class in motor sport (admittedly a few years ago) the additional requirements were quite modest, just an oil catch tank, a fire extinguisher, an ignition switch within reach of the strapped in driver, a yellow battery earth lead and an approved crash hat, as I recall. I've no idea what the rules are for road going race motorcycles, let alone those that might apply to an electric bike.

It might sound daft, given the very modest power of the bike I'm building, but I would quite like to have a go at this. I have a feeling that a light bike with modest speed with lots of battery capacity might be the way to go, given the terrain and length of this course.

In fact I think that my electric recumbent bicycle might even stand a chance of getting around the course with an extra battery pack. It will comfortably do around 25 miles on the 10Ah pack and could easily carry another one or two similar packs on the rack to extend the range. I doubt that they'd let me race that though!

Jeremy

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qdos
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Postby qdos » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:23 pm

One thing is for sure, if we don't ask then we won't know. Paul's the comps officer maybe we should see who's interested in making up a team for this. I think we ought to have a go even if it's not going to be as a recognised race and more as a public demonstration type event. It gets my vote let's have one of you guys write something for Plugged In and I'll publish it and see what happens 8)

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EVguru
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Postby EVguru » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:31 pm

I've no idea how I became competitions officer, other than by default. I'm technical officer and I can point people towards things that work and away from things that don't work and I can usually explain why (verbally that is). I would want this to be my primary job description. I do have experience of electric vehicle racing, but I'm not organising events.

Nobody knows exactly what the rules for the TTXGP will be, probaly least of all the organisers at this moment, but they've promised more detail before the month is out. Any questions is the mean time can be posted on their forum. Certainly they're going to stick to the 1950's FIM streamling rules, at least for the first year.

Amongst other things, it seems that anyone who enters will need a full ACU racing licence, with a mountain course endorsement - I've no idea how an amateur could go about getting such a thing.


An ACU licence is easy. Fill in the form, send off the money, attend the safety course.

That gets you a clubmans licence. I haven't got a straight answer telling me what level of licence is sufficient. If you need a National licence, then you will need to complete a number of races to upgrade. The 'mountain endorsement' is harder to find information on. I will be impressing on the organisers that whilst I recognise that safety is of paramount importance, the performance of machines in the first years is going to be lower that of those on 'Mad Sunday' and with much less trafic about. I really doubt if it's going to be a race (whatever the organisers call it), but instead an endurance run with energy managment of prime importance.

My guess is that an average speed of 50mph is going to be required, just getting round is not going to be enough. There is a good deal of hostility from the (non participating) racing community, so they've got to put on a good show.
Paul

http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.compton.vispa.com/the_named

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:54 am

Thanks for the info on the ACU licence, if the organisers are sensible then they will, no doubt, see that there is a lot of merit in encouraging participation from people who most probably don't have a motorcycle racing background.

I wholeheartedly agree with your views about performance, I doubt that any of the amateur teams are going to produce bikes that come even vaguely close to normal road bike performance over the whole course.

50mph sounds about right to me, although even that speed over 38 miles with a lot of hills will be challenging. I have a feeling that the big problem will be getting enough battery capacity into a bike frame to get the required endurance. The obvious approach would be to get the biggest frame possible, fit a relatively modest motor geared down for maybe 60mph tops, and fit as much battery capacity as physically possible. The penalty will be weight on the sustained hill climb sections, which will really push the motor current up. An approach like this may well benefit from a gear box, just to keep the motor efficiency up on the hills.

I prefer the alternative of going for the lightest possible bike and accepting that speed will be limited, but will wait until the rules are published before deciding whether it's worth a go.

It will be fascinating to see how the various trade-offs affect performance.

Jeremy

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PHEV
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Postby PHEV » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:07 pm

I reckon my Aprilia could make it at 50mph average as it stands...i'm hoping for somewhat better than that myself. We'll not impress the ICE folk at those speeds.

Petrol bikes are up to 130mph average now!
*Mazda MX-5, 300KW peak, 300v 20KW/h lipo pack, Soliton 1000A controller. 1100KG.
*Ducati SS twin Agni 80HP peak.
*Aprilia RS motorcycle, 500A controller, Cedric's AgniMotor, 96v 6kw/h LiPo pack, 130kg, 90mph.
www.jozztek.com

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EVguru
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Postby EVguru » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:44 pm

If we assume you can do 60mph on 5Kw (probably optimistic) then it would take 5Kw times 60mph divided by 38 miles = 3.1Kwh. That's a constant speed calculation. No acceleration. No hillicliming.

As I recall, you've got 40Ah at 72 volt = 2.9 Kwh

It's going to take a very big battery pack, but you've got to keep the weight down. It's no good just building a heavy machine or you won't be able to carry speed through corners, so you'll be throwing away energy braking and then using more to accelerate out.
Paul

http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.compton.vispa.com/the_named

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qdos
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Postby qdos » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:37 pm

I've no idea how I became competitions officer, other than by default.


Ah sorry Paul my mistake there well I think there's quite a bit of interest in this I was speaking to JP earlier and he's interested too so maybe we ought to see if we can either organise a team/attempt or even several?

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PHEV
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Postby PHEV » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:11 pm

I have more batteries now, with current set up a pack of 4.5kw/h would get you round fairly briskly (110wh/mile, I usually see this figure when i ride the bike reasonably aggressivly and hit over 70mph several times in a journey).
Given the worst wh/m i've ever seen on the bike (140), a pack of 5.3kwh would be needed (I have around that ready to go on the bike now).

A more powerfull motor would of course see higher wh/m figures, but with average speed increasing of course.

Cruising at 60mph takes between 70-90A, and 70mph can be maintained at less than 140A ( so you are right about 5kw for 60mph).



I didn't say I WAS going to do the race with this setup Paul, just that it COULD complete the circuit reasonably well :wink:
*Mazda MX-5, 300KW peak, 300v 20KW/h lipo pack, Soliton 1000A controller. 1100KG.
*Ducati SS twin Agni 80HP peak.
*Aprilia RS motorcycle, 500A controller, Cedric's AgniMotor, 96v 6kw/h LiPo pack, 130kg, 90mph.
www.jozztek.com

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EVguru
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Postby EVguru » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:29 am

I'm sorry, but I think you're significantly underestimating the difference between ordinary riding on public roads and riding fast on a closed circuit.

Driving my Scirocco EV around the Anglsea circuit and averaging 50mph took over three times the energy per mile as my 70mph commute down the motorway.

I've never got less than 65mpg out of my Morini 350 Sport on road, but I get less than 30mpg around Cadwell Park.

The TT course has an elevation change of some 1400 feet and there are more than 250 bends, have you any idea how hard you have to accelerate and how fast you have to go to average 50 mph? It may come as a shock, but motorcycles are SLOW around corners! They more than make it up under acceleration, but it's true. After all they have just two tiny contact patches compared to a cars' four larger ones and the suspension is unable to work properly when cranked that far over.
Paul

http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.compton.vispa.com/the_named


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