To rent or not to rent...

[electricvehicles]

Hi Peter,
Very well said, I couldn't agree more.

[ChrisB]

Interesting post Peter , actually reminds me of a chap that came along to my Berlingo weekend who was into all the big brother stuff and that we where all going to see a new world without electricity or food by the end of the year


ChrisB

[aminorjourney]

Hi Peter,

(It's Nikki by the way - everyone ends up spelling my name strangely! )

I'm not doing any market research - in fact I'm now placing my own money behind the Mitsubishi iMev as being the best I've seen thus far (although that's based on my experience with the petrol one).

Yes, it's fair for enthusiasts to own his or her own batteries, but I'm thinking of those in the general public who, like me, aren't really that concerned with what goes on under the bonnet!

[hyve]

My apologies Nikki; and the Mitsubishi may be a better choice. They have a very good history in electronics AND vehicles. The Think styling is very neat, but the weight is clearly too high and performance sluggish.

Naturally most people will go for the easy life; remember the saying "ignorance is bliss". What I'm trying to say is we need to push for the options to be kept open. The way your poll is set out rather suggests a search for just one option; perhaps I'm being pessimistic, though I hope I DON'T sound as ridiculous as Chris B's acquaintance.

Note how big business nowadays very much tries to limit our options. You can't just buy many things any more; you have to rent. Constant, everlasting income is what big business wants - so much easier than having to guess whether sales are going up or down. Also a lot more profitable !

There will be a natural tendency for them to want to do the same with batteries, which is why I feel it important for EV owners of the present to try to push against this and establish in these early days a real alternative. Those like Nikki - and me - who don't want to be poking into their batteries constantly to check on their health will create opportunities for independent service centres; a lot better system than having the OEM holding all the cards.

So I feel this subject becomes more than just an interesting discussion: it highlights some future possibilities which could well be not in society's best interests, and which we by our choices now can help to avert.

[MB]

I think we'll end up with a pick-n-mix model, which will allow people to choose the right configuration for them.

For people who want to own the whole shooting match, you'll be able to buy your car and batteries at the same time. The batteries would be covered under a warranty for a number of years, but ultimately how you look after them and what you do with them is entirely up to you.

For those who want to buy the car and lease the batteries, there will be two models - a monthly lease fee irrespective of use, or a pay-as-you-use model. I'm yet to work out the small print on how all this would work, but I suspect that this is the model that will work best of all for most people.

Ultimately, I would expect to see cars provided using the Project Better Life model, where you choose the car and a mileage plan and pay for your vehicle over a 3-4 year period using this plan - a bit like how mobile phones are sold now. If your vehicle usage changes during your ownership, you can change your payment plan to suit.

[badnewswade]

Big companies will almost certainly completely fleece the customer over the long run, especially considering that battery vehicles require much less maintenance and so forth. Small garage conversions will probably be better value as far as maintenance costs is concerned where they can be found, but may cost more up front and yield less range as they won't have access to the latest high technology parts.

How much does it cost to upgrade an ICE car to basic lead-acid batteries?

[Cogito]

In the past two years I would have to say that 90% of all EVs I've seen for sale have duff batteries and are being sold for that very reason. Surely leasing the batteries means that the cars have higher retail value? Perhaps an option to buy out the batteries would be a good idea alongside an optional rental scheme then?

In Norway sellers are asking silly money for used Think and PSA electic vehicles. The lack of alternatives has pushed up the price. The new Think has been delayed and the waiting list is long. I agree that many cars for sale have battery packs with problems but this is not dwelt upon in the adverts. Funny how morals go out the window where selling is concerned.
I have spoken to a few that have been burned through no fault of their own.
Some packs have gone through a recondisioning process at the national railway workhop but this is a violent process and many blocks have been destroyed, during and a short time after. I would personally steer clear of these cars. I`m talking SAFT NiCads here.

In Norway, Think are asking over 100 pounds inc.VAT a month for renting the battery pack but this will be a flexible sum depending on the savings an elecric vehicle brings in your country. Here there are many benefits, such as free parking, no road tax and free through toll gates. Think promises savings over ICE vehicles and help the environment as well.

I haven`t read all the messages here yet but as we all wish the new Think every success I shall dwell on the positive aspects of battery hire.
Think are committing themselves not only to replacement of the battery pack but ensuring that peripherals such as the charger are fuctioning optimally with the replacement battery technology. This has proved almost impossible with the old Think because the software for reprogramming of the BMS has been sat on.(Meanies).
I look forward to buying a 4-5 year old new Think that is on the verge of a battery replacement. just think how good the batteries might be then!

I have a feeling that battery hire will be more attractive to women, who generally have no pretensions of being able to change a pack themselves. There is a premium for driving trouble free and there will be so little to go wrong with electric cars that they will be laughing all the way to the bank. On the other hand, leasing batteries will be an affront to the average handyman. More fool them- they can use their skills to keep the old cars on the road!

We are not used to all this Big Brother stuff in Norway, Vikings are still a real problem though One of our local club members is developing an SMS diagnostic system for Reva cars, the small Indian ones pop in London that go under another name. This enables the service workshop to analyse the vehicles remotely without the need for a trip to the workshop. Simple things can be corrected as well.
All well and good but we hear that Think are developing a parallel system where it is conceivable that late payment for the leasing agreement will be punished by reducing the power from the battery pack. Eventually the pack will be turned off.

Let me finally add that the garantee period here for vehicles is 5 years by statute so tinkering within that period would be unwise. After that one could try to get the pack repossessed and fit another but would that be wise?

[badnewswade]

All well and good but we hear that Think are developing a parallel system where it is conceivable that late payment for the leasing agreement will be punished by reducing the power from the battery pack. Eventually the pack will be turned off.

I think that sort of thing is exactly why people object to leasing. It's like the Microsoft Windows licensing system on your car...! Nightmare. And of course that means the company can charge you whatever it likes, lock you in then raise the rates to insane levels. This is likely to be especially bad in island countries like the UK where you can't just nip over a border to get cheaper goods (Corporate types call the UK Treasure Island for this reason).

Owning outright means you control your own mobility as much as possible. Leasing sounds like it would just make you a slave to the company.

[NickJ]

Fascinating discussion here!

I have just been doing some sums on a spreadsheet on the costs of vehicles over time for various combos of fuel and purchase cost. The interesting thing is that when I did the calculations for a new "green" diesel (polo bluemotion 1.4d to be precise) and compared it to a second hand diesel car which is less economical the depreciation and finance costs of the new car worked out that the total spend for the new car was £5000 more than the used vehicle over 5 years. The issue of battery costs is interesting because it (as Nikiki rightly points out) does depend on how reliant we are on our vehicles. Many people buy cars new on finance plans not because it is cheap but because it gives (rightly or wrongly) peace of mind. Most people are not into the engineering or tinkering and want the "off the shelf option" whether this is electric or not it will always be the most expensive option.

I have run around for the last year in a clapped out Combo van, it cost me £800 it does nearly 50 to the gallon and is still worth £5-600...Great but it is horrible, smelly not very reliable and has needed constant goading. very cheap motoring but not something I would recommend.

To sum up cost (and "ownership") are not always the reason for people spending the money on a car. I agree we need the choice, and for me that means building an EV for my needs with no dealer tie ins but no great sense of "someone will fix it" either, which many people need to have for their daily transport.

Bit of a ramble, sorry

[qdos]

Nickj I'm with you on this one but then I've only ever bought one car new and that's basically because I had to as I'm the importer of them. Financially new cars make no sense at all.

I've built several cars and they have cost me peanuts to run over the years I've driven them the first one I drove every day for 12 years and only changed it as I fancied a change. The best buy I've ever made wasa Siearra Estate I bought for a 2 week holiday to take flying and camping equipment to the Alps it cost me £400 and I drove it for somewhere in the order of 6 years I think and only got rid of it as the rust in the body wasn't worth spending on to get it through the MOT again.

What people ought to remember really is that we are sold brand new cars by marketing people as they need turnover. i.e. our hard earned pennies. Now I totally agree that most people don't want to get their hands dirty but it really isn't hard to maintain a car and an EV is even easier! I'm glad to hear you've not fallen for the sales pitch