To rent or not to rent...

[mickv]

The problem with renting batteries is that you are still in the clutches of the dealers/manufacturers making ongoing money out of you. I would want to buy an electric car that can accommodate different batteries from lead to lithium so that I can purchase what suits me and change when I want to.
The same with charging, I would want a car that can be charged at home from the mains or trickle charged via solar or wind. I would not want to be dependent on specific pay as you use charging points.
What we have got to be careful of is the existing dealer service industry out there who will be somewhat redundant when Evs come in and will try to invent ways of getting money out of us.
Yes I am a cynic.

mick

[MB]

I would never, ever, ever rent batteries. The whole point of electric vehicles, in the end, is that they are cheap. Their environmental benefits are a function of that cheapness; they consume fewer resources and that is why they cost less, even if only in the long run

I accept your position - it was the position I would have taken two years ago.

But you've just spent £120 on new batteries for your bike. How many miles have you done on a set of batteries?

From my experience of selling these things over a few years, most people tend to do 8-12 miles a day on an electric bike, if they're using it for commuting to work. If they're charging up the bike every day, they'll need to replace the batteries every year or so.

So if they do an average of 10 miles a day for 220 days a year, you replace the batteries after one year, and the batteries cost £120 to replace, the batteries are costing them 18.3p a mile. Sorry, but that isn't cheap.

With regards to the figures I came up with last time, yes I plucked some of them out of the air, but they aren't complete fiction: they're based on real world experience that I have seen with both my electric vehicles and electric vehicles used by a number of different people and companies over the past few years.

[mickv]

I don’t understand the economics of this. How does it cost in for me to rent a battery. If the dealer buys it for £100 and rents it to me he must want a profit of at least £10. If I buy the battery myself I save £10 in lease fees. I am assuming we can both buy the battery at the same price on the web.

[GregsGarage]

I think that many, but not all people would want to spread the cost of the batteries over their life time, and it makes since to do that. But I also think leasing could be improved on even further. There have been some trials of putting the batteries in EVs to use while they are plugged in to the grid. Using a technology called "vehicle to grid" (V2G) your vehicle recieves commands from the grid to absorb excess capacity and also provide extra capacity depending on demand. Shallow charging and discharging like this has a minimal effect on battery life. Consider that most of the time your batteries are doing nothing and they cost many thousands of pounds (maybe tens of thousands!). That is not very good use of your batteries! So I say put them to better use and share the costs with the power companies, and if you want to buy your batteries outright then that is o.k. you could still benifit with V2G technology by making your batteries earn some money while they are plugged in.

More info about V2G here;

http://www.acpropulsion.com/technology/v2g.htm

or google V2G

Greg

[wattson]

The biggest arguement for leasing seems to be the high cost of these battery packs. With mass production & changing technology is there any reason WHY they cost so much? A lead - acid battery costs about 60 pounds so that is 600 quid for a set for my 106, why are NiCads ten times the price?
I would like to see manufacturers costings!
Wattson.

[GregsGarage]

We can't wait for the cheap battery to come along before we decide to buy a EV because it won't happen. If EV's are not being sold because people are waiting for cheap batteries then there won't be any cheap batteries because they aren't being produced because no one is buying EV's (The chicken or the egg comes to mind) .

Leasing is a way for the average person to afford an EV and to get into production large numbers of EV's and therefore large numbers of batteries. That would be good for all of us and should bring down the cost of batteries.

Let us say that some company were to sell 100,000 EV's a year with batteries leased for 5 years. That is a business opportunity for someone because in 4 years time there will be a market for nearly 100,000 replacement batteries!

[aminorjourney]

You have to also remember that new battery technologies will inevitably be more expensive than established ones such as lead acid which, with a few exceptions, hasn't changed much in design for over a century.


You also have to consider the relative cost of mining and producing next generation batteries. I'll bet they're more expensive than lead acid production.

[wattson]

I agree that new technology is usually expensive, especially when the take up is slow, but Saft have been making NiCads for years & they are reliable enough to be used in aircraft as standard equipment. PSA have made thousands of electric cars, vans & scooters since the early 90s, as have Renault. Before the Saxo/106 there was the AX electric & Renault produced the R5 in car & pick up truck versions in quantity. All used the same type of Saft battery. The reliability problem of the insulators was sorted in 2000.
So why do the batteries each cost as much as a 26inch LCD TV? Structurally they are not that much different to the old lead/acid type so is it the cost of raw materials?
There are newer technology batteries rivalling these NiCads threatening to make them obsolete, so surely now would be the time to push them before they go the way of Betamax VCRs.
I say buy, & I will do as soon as I can find some!
Wattson.
PS This forum works so much better than some others. Keep it up.

[ChrisB]

.
So why do the batteries each cost as much as a 26inch LCD TV? Structurally they are not that much different to the old lead/acid type so is it the cost of raw materials?

Yep some of the materials are expensive I agree, but I do feel personally that its a lot to do with companies knowing that you'll be getting something for nothing and them wanting a cut of your nothing dont blame them I suppose

Look at evacuated glass tube solar panels and the massive cost they are........errrrrrr .......let me see real new technology that one eh glass evacuated tubes with metal bits inside

ChrisB

[hyve]

Since reading the latest "Plugged In" I see why Nicky started this debate. The Think City is to be supplied with batteries owned by the company, who will keep a check on it's condition via satellite communications. I also note Nicky has been talking to this company. Are you doing some market research for them, Nicky ?

Modern batteries have become like racehorses or F1 cars; highly sensitive devices which need proper caring for in order to maintain the higher performance we demand of them. It's understandable that for many people it will be very attractive to have all this happen without any input from them.

The drawback seems unrelated but is important. Once the technology is in place for someone in another part of the world to "talk" to your battery we are just a tiny step away from the State being able to take over and switch you off if it feels the need, or simply tell it how much power to deliver so as to control your speed.

I really do not like the sound of this one little bit. If you think it won't happen please note a couple of TV adverts we get from time to time: one from DVLA telling us they know whose cars are taxed and insured etc and whose aren't; and the other from the BBC telling us they know where all the unlicensed TV's are. I especially resent the almost gloating tone of these ads; you can't escape - resistance is futile.

Government is not static. They are constantly looking for new ways to make "improvements", and incremental change is the way they do it. To a generation brought up on "Brave New World" and "1984" the power government and even local authorities now have over us is scary, but to those who've grown up under these conditions it's normal.

To bring this back to batteries: there are a number of technologies on offer now and I note Think are offering three different ones. Why ? Which one would a lay person know how to choose ? Such conundrums are holding the EV back and this all needs shaking out, with a dominant one or two clearly quantifiable alternatives remaining.

Therefore it makes very much more sense for the knowledgeable enthusiast such as a BVS member to purchase his own, so that he can change at will. I return to an earlier comment I made here: if not wishing to purchase outright, paying by credit card allows cost to be spread over a long period, and the interest will still be less than the margin the rental coy. puts onto the price, remembering that interest reduces with the balance, and inflation effectively reduces even that.

Further, by pushing the industry in this direction initially we will help to establish a pattern, reducing the inevitability of the absolute control arising from outside ownership and it's implications for individual freedom.