Solar PV array prices in 2009

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MB
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Postby MB » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:09 pm

ChrisB wrote:As you say millions of pounds are spent in developement etc on new products and I agree that the end user has to cop this to a degree, how ever its not like solar panels are new :roll: we've (military and the likes) have been using these for YEARS, just one that sticks in my mind was Skylab and that was in the early 70's so its not new tech.


Correct, but the panels have always been a very niche market. Plasma displays have been around since the 1960s. So very much like solar, it has taken a very long time to become affordable.

While I agree the panels are a bit tricky to make, we have had some practice now and we've been making them for over 40yrs, OK efficiencies have been much improved from the early ones but whats going on with the price :?

You've just said that plasma prices dropped vastly in just 4yrs :shock: so you'd expect in 40yrs panels would be at the very least at a reasonable price :evil:


Absolutely, but plasma displays were hugely expensive for decades before they dropped in price, and only when the performance of the technology created a new market for it - i.e. large TVs. The solar 'killer app' hasn't arrived yet, so there is still not a volume market for them. Ergo, the price will remain high.

I'm not sure that you can say PV panels are difficult to make work, even poorly.......you just point them at the sun :wink:


It depends on how much efficiency you want to achieve. You can always compensate for a bad design with more panels, but if you want to get the best value for money, you've got to get the best design.

its the same with EV's if you look at what has to go into an EV its far less than a ICE vehicle less moving parts less machining etc etc so why are we being charged more for them :?


Two reasons: volumes and batteries. Most high performing motors are hand-wound, which makes them expensive. EVs are niche which mean you can't yet build them in the volumes required to get the cost down, and the cost of batteries far outweighs the rest of the cost in an EV.

PS Book MB ....what book :shock: so come on then spill da beans :wink:


I'm writing a book on how to design solar PV systems in order to get the best out of them. It is called the Solar Electric Handbook and the UK version will be published at the end of March, with the American edition following in the summer.
My new book is out: The 2011 Electric Car Guide is available from Amazon and all good bookshops.

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audia2ev
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Postby audia2ev » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:49 pm

Maybe it's rather early for me (as a newbie) to get into a political debate but here goes. Here in Italy the pricing of PV follows anything but a free market capitalist model, unless the distortion of that market by installation certification cartels on one side, and government subsidies on the other, is part of such a model. And I suspect the UK is pretty similar, although since the UK market is so small (weren't there something like only 250 domestic UK installations last year?) there is no way any model can really apply.

Apart from any cartel that might be informally or (when the governments legislate to force de facto cartels through certification) formally established, the subsidy system has a massive up front pricing effect. In Italy up until 2005, there was no feed in tariff, only a capital grant (like still exists in the UK, right?). The government here paid a whacking 50% (approx) of the cost: prices were sky high. In 2006, they started a German/Spanish style feed in tariff: instant 30% drop in prices.

I don't say that the UK "strategy" for PV installation is having a similar effect of inflating prices, but one shouldn't really kid oneself that the pricing of such low volume gear that attracts subsidies is not seriously distorted. And usually up...

Another good example here is sale of electric vehicles. Nearby to me is a low volume factory producing Fiat Pandas with MesDea (Swiss but Fiat interest there) gear inside. The Italian government gives a 65% subsidy on the sale price of such cars (which basically means the Panda is same cost as petrol version). Cost of these cars in Italy? €38,000. Cost of same car over the border in Switzerland? CHF34,000. Note that at today's rate that is €22,600 - a cool €16,000 mark-up.

I'm not sure what PV prices in the UK are, if anyone wants to compare with my 4.4 kWp system installed Feb 2007, I'd be happy to give you the numbers. So far as I know from others around me, not much changed in two years.

Simon

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ChrisB
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Postby ChrisB » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:13 pm

Back to this little chat

I know what your saying Mike but I still cant help but think we are (the end user) still being bumped on the price :evil:




audia2ev wrote:Maybe it's rather early for me (as a newbie) to get into a political debate but here goes. Here in Italy the pricing of PV follows anything but a free market capitalist model, unless the distortion of that market by installation certification cartels on one side, and government subsidies on the other, is part of such a model. And I suspect the UK is pretty similar, although since the UK market is so small (weren't there something like only 250 domestic UK installations last year?) there is no way any model can really apply.................


No problem joining in Simon 8) always good to add to a chat I say :wink:

I think I can see where your coming from with the whole grant side of things, here in the UK it frustrates me that while you can get a grant for such an installation you can only use said grant with "recognized" installers, who surprise surprise appear to charge far more for the install than I personally feel its worth (sorry if we have any "recognized" installers here) I priced up a system here via a "recognized" installer and it came out at a shade under 16K :shock:
I then priced up the components which came out at more respectable 9K so apparently the 2day install costs where going to be around 6K mmmmm wish I could earn 3k a day :evil:
Perhaps I'm in the wrong job :lol:

ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!

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MB
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Postby MB » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:52 pm

It's the same with solar hot water systems. You can go out and buy the components yourself for well under £1000, but if you want it professionally installed, most quotes come in at between £3000-£5000.
My new book is out: The 2011 Electric Car Guide is available from Amazon and all good bookshops.

microman
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Postby microman » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:30 pm

I had a professional quote for £9000! It might have saved me £80 - £100 a year at best. I just laughed (quietly).


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